I have to tell you, I wish I had spotted this one for myself, but a more wiser friend pointed this out.
Scripture confuses me these days, seriously.
Somehow, it used to all make sense, even when it didn't- it didn't seem to matter.
I find myself wondering about scripture- about christian values- and ultimately about Jesus.
Is scripture the Perfect living word of God? without error? and if so, which translation? I am told that the King James version is the one without error.
There is so much in scripture that perplexes me.
What perplexes me more is what the CHURCH does in the name of scripture.
Take for example, homosexuality.
Talk to any fundamental christian and they know; it is sin. Talk to some, and they would have no problem yelling, screaming, condemning, and even arresting those who call themselves gay.
and yet, I come across this verse. Jesus is talking about the rapture...if one is so inclined to believe in the rapture. Look it up for yourselves, I give you the infallible KING JAMES VERSION.
....and it says,
"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left."
So I ask you, christians and non...gay and strait....jew or muslim,
"WHAT THE HELL WOULD TWO MEN BE DOING IN ONE BED" ?
and if they are doing anything remotely near to what I am doing with my husband, then "WHY IS ONE BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN?"
could it be possible that homosexuality is not a sin?
A Bee Or A Fly? A Bug Or A Moth?
-
I've been paying more attention this year to insects and butterflies that
visit the flower garden. At first glance I thought it looked a little like
a ho...
6 days ago
53 comments:
Just stumbled over your blog, enjoying your writing already :)
"WHY IS ONE BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN?"
I think the answer could lie in the phrase so often repeated in beds across the world "Oh, G-d, I think I'm in heaven" ;)
Sorry, seriously that's a good find, haven't read that one before but yes, once again it raises the question of how much the Bible/Koran/Torah, etc, have been stained with men's bias over the centuries.
An Aussie blog you might enjoy is Queer Issues
Thanks for directing me here and an interesting find is right! I don't presume to know much about the Bible (having read the better known parts of it, but not having studied it) and, having sold them in a retail store at one time, I felt more confused than comforted by the many translations. The fact is that gay people have existed since the beginning of time and you're right to question interpretations of context. It all comes back to these questions: Who was in power when it was translated? How was their power threatened? Who translated it and why?
Hi TerraRose
You left a comment on my blog post about sodomy and the bible. I apologise for my friend's unnecessary comment.
Holly Scriptures and their interpretations are fascinating.
I can say, as a Queer Catholic that homosexuality is NOT a sin. A sin is something done consciously and deliberately against God. It is something which is done to hurt God in some way. Hurting other people (we are all children of God) or harming his creation are examples of sin. Loving someone is not a sin.
In regards to the "two men in one bed" I find it interesting that the word "men" is conveniently dropped the "New Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition" - This is the bible I was required to have and use when I went to a Catholic school. The following line 17:34 says "there will be two women grinding meal together" Would it be to far fetched to believe that the word “meal” was added. Lol.
My reading of the story "The coming of the Kingdom" leads me to believe that the "two in one bed" was more of a metaphor suggesting that of all the people who may have been living the same life, only some will go to heaven.
I am also aware of Christian churches in America known as “Gay churches” (They’ve got EVERYTHING in America) which apply a specific interpretation to the bible and come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.
I am of the opinion that the bible is not “the perfect living word of God” while I believe in God and think that Jesus was, in the main a fairly decent bloke I think it must be noted that the bible was written by men who were not only trying to EXPLAIN their world but to EXCUSE it and JUSTIFY it.
This is indeed interesting.
I went to biblegateway dot com and looked up the reference in five different translations.
The word "men" appears only in the KJV, and is in italics in the NKJV. Otherwise, it is either "two" or "two people." Interestingly, the next verse mentions "two women" grinding grain.
Disturbing . . . and worthy of some more in depth study.
If you're willing to have a link posted, check this one out . . .
http://www.lsn.se/2509/Comments.on.Current.Issues/Two%20in%20one%20Bed.pdf
I'm not saying that I agree with this guy's interpretation, but if we're digging here, I guess it's a good a place as any to start . . .
tys and kathy-
I kindof guessed that it was meant like "two people in the same situation"
my point remains that language is cultural. around here there are many fundamentalist that follow the king james version literally.
The greek language may mean two people; using the male word in a male dominant language.
It was also my understanding that the greek culture allowed for homosexual lovers. That the word family comes from the greek word familia...which was defined as anything a man owned; his home, animals, wife and children- that when he wrote to his "lover" it was another man.
actually, yhis sounds like a new topic for another post.....
Hi Tera Rose,
I wanted to make note here, as per
tsdaddy's comment here:
[...]The word "men" appears only in the KJV, and is in italics in the NKJV. Otherwise, it is either "two" or "two people." Interestingly, the next verse mentions "two women" grinding grain.[...]
I used my NASB (New American Standard) Bible when I wrote out my jots. :-)
The NASB also renders the verse: "two men".
Hello Tera, I came across this verse this evening and noticed the "two men" issue too. Oh, but first let me introduce myself. I am also 40, I am a Christian, and homosexual. Now for many years, I shut that possibility out. I knew I never chose to be this way, but I am 'this way'. In recent day's I have looked into the Scripture 'with new eyes' and something diffent is emerging - as for this verse - well it is not the proof text I was hoping it would be it does refer to TWO and to ONE BED, but the Greek word for men is actually missing, and hence modern texts that drop the word altogether are not wrong. However, were the writiers of the KJV correct to assume it implied men or should they have, as more modern versions have put it people .
I could launch into a theological treatise on the matter, but for the time being, and on your blog I will simply say that the gender of the pople in bed together was NOT an issue - the Greek word for TWO is duo - which I am sure is a masculine adjective. THis is perhaps why the KJV renders it men.
Hi there I read this verse in Luke's gospel this morning which I have probably read many times in my 27 years as a Christian but not really figured that it would be used by advocates of homosexuality to justify 'that which is against nature'. I therefore just typed the words "Two men in one bed" into Google and right at the top of the search results I came to your blog.
It's not surprising that it is only in the King James version of the bible because in those days innuendo wasn't what it is today so to use the word men in this context simply means people and because under the Old Testament law sodomy was punishable by death it wasn't too difficult to understand what Jesus was saying.
Anyhow, good try - but we can't justify ourselves by our own righteousness as we are all born miserable sinners by nature.
Justification is a gift we receive when we take God at his word and accept the sacrifice of the cross of Jesus Christ as the only way to 'get right' with God. BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
Have a great Day
I had heard that in that culture, it was common for the workers to sleep in the same bed. They didn't have the luxury of space & privacy that we westerners have. It was similar to cowboys or ranch hands who share the same sleeping quarters. (although at least on the ranch you got your own bunk.)
I have come across this verse many times in the past, however, just few nights ago I stumbled upon it and after much deliberation within my spirit, I am forced to say Jesus was referring to two actual men! Why? If we really accept Christ to be the Son of God who is from the beginning and the end, I think it is only right to believe that He knows everything. Jesus was speaking about the future and He knows the contentious issues that would come from His statement. What goes to show that Jesus is speaking about two actual men is His other references: vs.35 He referred to two women grinding (working) together; surely, especially in today's world both men and women work together in similar vocations, so if Jesus means people in general why not then continue in the same vein and say two men grinding (working) together? Surprisingly, Jesus continues further in vs.36 and once again uses two men, this time in the field. From my research I realized that some deception is employed by man around this passage. No one has a problem accepting that Jesus is referring to two women grinding, but there is a need to reinterpret that 'two men' does not mean actual men, but people. To show this hypocrisy some other translations have gone as far as to delete vs.36 from the passage. Why? Are they afraid more persons will wonder why Jesus goes from men to women to men in His analogies, which then makes clear distinctions and shows that He is deliberate in his distinctions?
Surely Jesus could've used the two men in the field and then the two women grinding together, but He instead spoke to two men in bed. The key words in vs.34 are bed and night. What does the bed symbolize? Well it has many referrals, but in the sense of its sharing by two persons speak to love, commitment, agreement, bonding as couple (wife and husband). This is further advanced by the insertion of 'night'. If Jesus was speaking about people in a general context wouldn't it be more suitable to use 'day' instead of 'night'? I am certain there would be less if not no confusion if Jesus had said '' ...In that Day there shall be two men in one bed.'' But the use of night speaks profoundly to the symbolism of bed in terms of love, passion share by its occupants. Remember also that Jesus had already declared in Matthew 24:36 that no one knows the day or the hour when He shall return; not even Himself, so surely Jesus is speaking to the issue of homosexuality. Jesus was speaking not to the Pharisees who were hell-bent on keeping the old way of things, He was speaking to His disciples who we know were humble men with impressionable minds. Jesus knows that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is misinterpreted in order to abuse and discriminate against gays. Jesus in this lesson makes several references to Sodom (which is today the pinnacle of gay attacks:sodomite) and then declared that two men in the night will be in one bed: Are we that naive not to see the correlation or are we just being stubborn to think that this was just a mere coincident?
Cont'd
...This is not the first time Jesus spoke to the issue of homosexuality, in Matthew 19:12 He declared that not all men were born to be with women. So it should come as no surprise that Jesus wouldn't see our reality today of two men being in one bed a strange and unnatural occurrence. In fact this declaration by Jesus is not only confined to the Rapture but speaks to the social changes in our lives. What was unthought of years ago in terms of homosexuals is now becoming a reality. Gays are finally getting rights to marry despite much opposition as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-3. But, two men in one bed speaks to the reality of the day that has come when two men will be allowed to share one bed in love and commitment.
Those who believe the bible speaks 'clearly' against homosexuality will hasten to oppose my position, but other than saying loosely that the bible condemns homosexuality where is the evidence? Surely no one can say Jesus opposes or condemns gays, and other passages that they may point to in no way address homosexuals: Can they show us passages that say men who say they are born having no interest in women are a reproach unto God? NO! In fact I have earlier pointed out that Jesus acknowledges the reality that not all men were born attracted to women. Furthermore, just like heterosexuals, gays desire love and commitment; where in the bible Jesus objects to this reality?
Those who have eyes to see, let them see, and those who have ears to hear, let them hear.
Why did you make the assumption that two men are being talked about? No English version is actually saying that; the closest is KJV which says "in that night there shall be two [men] in
one bed" indicating that the word "men" is supplied, but "men" in those days
meant people, not men.
The Greek says:
Lk 17:34 LEGW hUMIN, TAUTHi THi NUKTI ESONTAI DUO EPI KLINHS MIAS, [hO] hEIS
PARALHMFQHSETAI KAI hO hETEROS AFEQHSETAI
Since there is no noun connected to DUO, the implied noun must be ANQRWPOI (people). When a noun is to be supplied, it must come from the preceding context (not applicable here) or the most generic noun is to be chosen.
ANQRWPOI (people) is more generic than ANDRES (men).
Both hO and hEIS are masculine, because they refer to the implied ANQRWPOS.
The same applies to hO hETEROS. The text is not difficult and the hO is optional, just like in English you could say "One will be taken" or "The one will be taken".
The presence of the article seems to add an emphasis on the contrast between the two people. "The one person" will be taken, "the other person" will be
left.
The text does not tell us whether it refers to two men or a man and a woman.
It is just two people. Therefore, the correct translation is "two people" like almost every English version says.
two men one bed. im guessing because nowadays gays wants their homosexuality rights and want to be married. so they may get their rights. if you read a tiny bit further it also says two women shall be grinding together (lesbians). and in times like these homosexuality is beginning to rise. so these are signs and times when the rapture shall come as a theif in the night. but also everything else in the bible must come to pass. homosexuality is just a sign.
read it, I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (Luke 17:34-36) Its consitent. all three are in regards to people working, perhaps on a plantation, or work farm of sorts... There is evidence that suggests that it man not even directly translate to to literal men, but even if it did, 2 men sharing a bed on a work plantation, does not seem to be a stretch, at all, in fact probably common place. THose who wish to use this as Jesus advocating homosexuality, Need only study the entire bible, to see God's views. God gave us the freedom to do whatever we wish to do, but there is really no way to justify homosexuality as okay in the eyes of God biblically. The fact that Jesus does not outright condemn homosexuality, evidences him promoting non-judgment omungst everyone, as we are ALL sinners. This does not mean that homosexuality is not sin.....
I'm so pleased to discover this discussion! There is a free book available as a PDF titled, "Jesus and the Six Homosexuals," which deals with this very passage.
If you send an email to radical_discipleship@hotmail.com you can get a free copy.
(Oh, did I mention that I wrote it? :) )
Ronald W. Goetz
I'm going to start off by saying that an "infallible" English translation was NEVER promised. The only text that was promised preservation is the original language texts.
That being said, I looked it up and the word "men" used in Luke 17:34 is not in the original Greek. It is in italics in the KJV meaning that it was added to try to help in the translation, so it could have also been translated as "people" instead. But let us assume that "men" is correct and consider the fact that 1.) all have sinned and even Christians sin, and 2.) if a Christian is not careful he or she can fall into sin just like everyone else (we are not perfect) BUT they will never have a clear conscience so long as they are participating in whatever sin they are engaged in.
It is possible for a Christian to be carnal and not be in a right relationship with God. So even if we did entertain the thought of "men" being the correct translation, to me it speaks of certain Christians condoning homosexuality. But before its thought of as a good thing remember that Luke 17 is a chapter talking about life just before Christ's second coming when he will judge the earth.
Even though homosexuality is a sin, that is not the sin that sends anyone to hell. According to 1st John 2:2, Christ has paid for mankind's sin on the cross, and now the only sin that will condemn a person to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ. After all, once you finally reject the payment for your sin, there is nothing left to pay with that God will accept.
Who says the two men are actually two beings? Could the two in the same place not be the same person? It goes on to say, "Where the body is, there will the vultures gather." Could it not be the Spirit being taken from the flesh? The flesh and the spirit we believe are against each-other. Flesh and blood will not and can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yes, It the original Greek does not specify "men." It is not included in the original at all but was placed there by the translators using the generic term "men" for all people. Further, the Greek term for "bed" could also be translated "couch." Both terms were used for what was sat on at supper time as well. What was common was a "Biclinium" which was a couch or bed sat on to recline at the table and it only held two people. Hope this helps. But please don't take this too far out of context and forsake the rest of Scripture which is very clear on the subject.
...let's start with the rapture bit...Christ is speak of losing one's self to gain Life...so where does the rapture come into play?...anyways, the word for taken actually means to receive to/associate with one's self...so to lose our self, we will be received to one's self?...the word for left actually means to be sent away (from self)...seems that the 2 men on one bed are a divided single man...same with the 2 woman grinding together...and with the 2 men in the field...Churchy-types seem to have somehow gotten the notion that these are 3 sets of 2 individuals...that's because their minds are divided...Word separates bone/marrow, souls/spirit...another issue is man's concept of measuring time...the Kingdom is at hand 2000 years ago, it still hasn't moved...if we look at tomorrow as being the last measure, then I suggest we've missed the mark...
...and the men/women is implied, not directly translated as such...it is 2, as in twain or both...
In answer to your first question - Why are two men in one bed? - Clearly they are sleeping. The problem people have with the Bible is that they are breaking there spiritual necks trying to disprove it or approve of SIN. You can lie with someone in bed and not be sexual (a shock to modern day thinkers) If I said, There shall be a father and his son in one bed... Does that mean they are sexual - NO! It means he climbed intointo bed with dad during the night. Kids climb into bed with there parents all the time and it's not sexual. See Lev 18:22 to see what God thinks of homosexuality and how he defines two men in the same bed being sexual. Also in 1611, when the AV KJV was translated - and without error - it was not uncommon for workers "in the field" vs 36 to share a bed for lack of space. This also happened in coal miners camps, logging camps, steel working factories, concentration camps, and plantations. After a long day they came back washed, ate, and slept. "Two men" have [been] in one" barracks, ditches, bungalows, trenches, pits, dungeons, and cells and nobody would accuse them of being sexual.
One is going to heaven because He believed and trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior; and the other is staying behind because he did not.
vss 34-36 CF: Mt. 24:40-41
1Cor 15:1-4,50-57; 1Thes 4:13-18
Jeff, Luke 17:22-37 is known as "Luke's Small Apocalypse." The whole section has the theme of same-sex relationships. The "two men in one bed" is just one of four elements in this theme.
The second gay thematic element are the "two women grinding together in the same place." Grinding is not only a sexual euphemism in 20th century English, but also in O.T. Hebrew (Job 31:10, Judges 16:21, and Lamentations 5:13), as well as the Greek in the days of Jesus and Luke (Plutarch).
The third gay thematic element is the story of the destruction of Sodom, which has as one of its main elements man-on-man sex.
Finally the fourth element of the same sex theme: the lightning and the eagles (vss 24 & 37) which were the central logos of the Roman god Zeus and the mortal Ganymede, who together were the primary symbols of male homosexuality in Roman culture.
The point of this passage: non-celibate same-sex relationships are a non-issue for God. The criteria for acceptability with God do not include being a practicing gay or lesbian.
No one is breaking their necks to prove the gay and lesbian couples are not "sinners." Jesus himself was telling us that homosexuality is a non-issue in terms of people's acceptability.
The Greek word for "two men" in Luke 17:34 is DUO. This word simply means "two." Some have concluded this refers to two adults, two children, or a father and a son. But the word DUO can refer to males, females and objects.
If we all look for truth and not with our own addenda we would find that the italics are not in the original scriptures. As I took this study to studylight.org and saw that the Greek does not mentioned men in v34 or v36 and woman in v35. The Greek say for v34 "to say you this, that night shall be two in bed, one these to take and that other send a way."
By TEG F4
But if you notice click on the Greek word Aphiemi it has a negative and a positive meaning. scroll down and see how it is used and the amount of times.
I have noticed that one Greek word has been translated in to a 100 different English words with neg and pos meanings and with opposite meanings English words.
That has always baffled me.
But I tell you this God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
God said Man should not lay with man yesterday. It is the same today and it will be the same tomorrow.
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. These people that committed on this that is for homosexuality are WRONG. You are in sin, confess and repent.
A message from God. "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Book of Revelation 18:4.
The word TAKEN here is NOT referring to a RAPTURE, but someone actually being KILLED. If you do a contextual study of the word TAKEN in the KJV you will see it is referring to being KILLED. God has NEVER, nor EVER WILL condone homosexuality. It is a SIN- and will send one to HELL if they do not ultimately REPENT of it. Unless they have been given over to a REPROBATE MIND - as in
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
we should not get ourselves distracted from the message He is passing across to us. What we are meant to hold onto is that on that day, there may be a band of people, band of brothers, band of sisters, a family, an orphanage home, a team, a gang, any collection of a body of people...and some will be taken and the others wont.
We cannot question His standard of justice or righteousness, it is far far higher than ours or than what we can imagine. He examines the heart, motives and all that.
Lets us do what will make us part of the people taken and then latet question Him to our hearts content when we are up there.
Enjoy!
I wonder how many thousands of times Romans 1:21-32 has been pasted onto blog comments and into emails. I'll bet it goes into the tens of thousands.
I started investigating the anti-homosexualism's use of the Bible the way the Berean's cheked on Paul's message:
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Years ago I just accepted the anti-homosexual Clobber Passages without question. Once I examined them, however--one by one, "I became a man, and put away childish things."
The most popular Clobber Passages are patently misused and selectively applied, which includes Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1, and I Corinthians 6:1-11.
I think it's time for some folks to give it a rest. Learn what obedience to Christ means for you, you yourself, and stop gossiping like a busybody, meddling in the affairs believers you don't even know (II Thessalonians 3:11).
First and foremost, the Bilble states that men should not lay with another man as he lays with a woman.
In those days, Jewish men used to sleep in the same beds and women did the same. It was the pure thing to do. It is still common among straight men today. These could be cousins, best friends, business partners, etc. There is nothing wrong with it. But there is something morally wrong with with two men participating in sex. Sex was really meant to procreate and nothing more. It is our sin that carried sex into lust. No man or woman should thrive on such a thing. It is a gift from God to continue to populate the Earth forever and forever.
When we read, we have to read from the writers perspective - his time, and considering how they lived is one of them.
We should not get off of the subject either. The verse points no where to sexuality. It only states two men. It is trying to give a story as to what will happen in the days of Jesus' return.
It is a shame that the Bible has to be rewritten (example: NIV) in order for us not to question whether homosexuality is good with God. It isn't in no way. The Bible is plain and clear about it. And in no way am I judging...just using discernment.
The Holy inspired books of the Bible were translated over time from Greek and Hebrew into Latin for the modern chrisitian of that era. It was later translated into English. To this day, Jerome's translations have been the best translations according to popular scholars.
This is the translation of Luke 17:34
Latin:
"dico vobis illa nocte erunt duo in lecto uno unus adsumetur et alter relinquetur"
Translation from Latin to English
English:
I say to you, in that night there will be two in one bed, one taken, and the other will be left.
I hope this helps.
Dude that is an excellent question sometimes you need to check the greek and do some background research on what the writer was talking about. The word is klinēs in greek and this is it's definition:
(n.) An article of furniture to sleep or take rest in or on; a couch. Specifically: A sack or mattress, filled with some soft material, in distinction from the bedstead on which it is placed (as, a feather bed), or this with the bedclothes added. In a general sense, any thing or place used for sleeping or reclining on or in, as a quantity of hay, straw, leaves, or twigs.
So because we know that the Bible forbids and condemns homosexuality we can be sure that it is speaking of it in a way that would be talking about it in the sense that it is a place to sit like a couch.
Ronald needs to stop spreading his filth, as do the rest of the sodomy promoters on here. What ends they will go to in order to cram their vile affections into every topic! U used to think like you do but the Bible is clear, and after intensive study I can say for a fact, homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, in both testaments and even by Jesus himself. You lot promote a pack of lies just to make yourselves feel better about your wicked activities. Shame on you!
I'm Greek my mum has the bible in original ancient Greek text and the translation of it is (On that night, two sleeping in the same bed, one is saved and the other perishes) that is the exact and accurate translation! I have also King James and have no idea why on earth they placed (two men) in there when in the Greek it does not mention the word men at all?!!!
Men having sexual relations is a sin and will always be a sin always for it is unholy and G_d is Holy!
I recommend you google "the secret Gospel according to Mark". It implies Jesus was very comfortable with homosexuality. Very comfortable.
"There shall be two men in one bed"; this is said agreeably to the time, the night before mentioned, that being the time to be in bed, at rest and asleep; for they that sleep, sleep in the night; and still suggests the security the people of the Jews would be in, at the time of their destruction. The word "men" is not in the text, it is only, "there shall be two in one bed"; and may as well be understood of a man and his wife, since it is not so usual for two men to lie in one bed; and this the rather more strongly expresses the distinguishing providence of God in saving one, and suffering the other to be taken and lost: the words may be rendered, "there shall be two upon one couch": that is, sitting together at supper, which was also in the night season: it was the custom of the ancients to sit upon beds, or couches, at meals; and they had a bed, or couch, which held two persons only, and was called Biclinium (h): and so this likewise intimates, that the destruction of the Jews would be at a time when they were thoughtless of it, and were eating and drinking, as in the days of Noah and of Lot, Luke 17:27.
Actually, this is not a reference to the rapture, but to the revelation, which is the second coming of Jesus at the end of the Great Tribulation period. Or you may say it is at the beginning of the millenial earthly kingdom. Either would be correct.
Several people have mentioned that the word "man" does not appear in verse 34, and this is correct. It can mean either "two men" or "two people" or simply "two."
There is, however, something called poetic parallelism in the Bible. If you read the Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the Song of Solomon, or Ecclesiastes, you will see that there they have ideas running in parallel with one another. Hebrew poetry did not rhyme, it had parallel ideas instead.
The two verses of Luke 17:34-35 are written in parallel to each other. And verse 35 can only be two women because of a grammatical thing called the feminine participle.
In English, when it is two women doing something, we don't signal the gender of the people in the -ing ending, but Greek does.
Thus, we have two men in verse 34 and two women in verse 35, at night. And I have written extensively on the sexual use of "grind" in both Greek and Latin in the time of Christ.
Part of the problem is that we are not taught to recognize the presence of poetic parallelism by our leaders.
Another example of parallelism in this passage is the very careful parallel structure of the accounts of Noah and Lot.
The story of Noah appears in Matthew and Luke, but the story of Lot is not in Matthew. Lot's story was specially written and inserted after Noah's.
The Lot account, with the destruction of Sodom, adds a reminder of man-on-man sex to the passage. Thus, we are not left with just two men in one bed, but we also have two women grinding at night as well as the story of Sodom.
someone commented on the secret gospel of mark . in any of the Gnostic gospels you must not allow yourself to bleed them into the bible. the word of God is stamped with his approval within it are proofs that it and it alone is your guide it tells you which is truth and which is lie , as Jesus was the bulk of the old testament in shadow and typologies, so to are prophecies and details allowing you to know the complete work of Gods bible. the bible is 66 books no less and no more. God created the world in 7 day but rested on the 7th and made it holy he was complete on the 6th day the 6th day is when he created man. God is triune, father son and holy spirit. Hebrew the language of the bulk of the bible [old testament] has 22 letters much can be learned from studying these letters as they are the language of creation 3x22=66 there are 66 books of the bible. in the story of Joseph which is one of the most perfect typologies of Christ when he becomes head next only to pharaoh of Egypt and is the bread of life for all the known world at the time in the 7 year famine [mirroring the end time 7 year tribulation] he after trials welcomes his brothers in and then calls for his father when his father [in genesis] comes into Egypt it says ;in genesis 46; 26 all the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt which came out of his loins were three score and six =66, there are 66 books of the bible. after Moses freed the people from Egypt in exodus and by the exact order and pattern of God they built the tabernacle of Moses [which mirrors the tabernacle in heaven] the lamp stand was made of one piece of beaten gold that had a 3fold configuration that made 7 lights on each of the 6 branches out of the sides it had [exodus 25 31 through 37] three bowels made like unto almonds with a knop and a flower which = 9 on each of the six branches like the 9 fruit of the spirit and 9 gifts of the spirit 9x6 = 54 but on the main shaft it had 4 bowls like unto almonds with a knop and flower=12 12 for 12 tribes 12 apostles 12 +54 =66 the lamp stand of God representing g the light of God the tee of life the light of the world had 66 ornaments to it there are 66 books of the bible. Isaiah has exactly 66 chapters to it ,it was written long before the rest of the bible was written it mirrors exactly the whole bible Isaiah 40 chapter 3 the voice of him that crieth in the wilderness ,prepare ye the way of the lord make straight in the desert a highway for our god [this is prophetic of john the Baptist, in the 40th book [old testament is 39 books] Matthew is the 40th book chapter 3 verse 3for this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah , saying , the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD, make his paths straight. 40th book chapter 3 verse 3 links up perfectly with Isaiah 40 verse3 Isaiah mirrors the whole bible before it was made 66 chapters Isaiah 66 books in bible [for more see bible wheel.com] there are 66 book in the bible the lamentations of Jeremiah have 5 chapter the first 2 exactly 22 verse 22 letters of Hebrew alphabet the middle chapter has exactly 66 verse and the last 2have 22 it stands out directly i the middle so you take notice there are 66 verse there are 66 books of the bible. gods divine name in Hebrew is written out in 3 parts which is mirrored in revelations talking about Jesus he who is , who was , and who is to come is variation on the same four letters of gods name from 1letter to 2letters to 3letters of his four fold name, 6th day 66 books of bible to have a completion when 666 is destroyed, there are 66 books of bible no more no less. the bible in Hebrew or Greek have numerical value to its letters and there is a harmony of precision in no other book and only these 66 books have that harmony all other so called secret gospels are false, especially if you just follow bibl principle if it says something completely different than the rest of the gospels it is a lie ,
Gods numbers and timing is precise. Hebrew letters are 22 in number they have numeric value aleph = 1 going tav = 400. They have symbols attached to each aleph = ox tav = cross. This can be seen in Hebrew text prior to existence of Jesus . Tav= cross = 22nd letter of alphabet.
Compare genesis 22 psalm 22 with revelation 22 and 22nd letter of Hebrew tav = cross,
genesis 22 where God tells Abraham to take his son his only son and go to mountain forehand offer him there as an offering. it was a journey of 3 days where any who knew would consider Isaac dead [dead for 3 days] Isaac is a type of Jesus even carrying his own wood to make the climb like Jesus carried his own cross, compare it with psalm 22 my God my God why hast thou forsaken me. The whole psalm reads [written hundreds of years before Christ] like Christ’s agony on the cross. With revelation 22 [only 22 chapters in revelation. They are beginning middle and end of the same event.
They are a shadow and type of the event.
gen;22is the shadow and type Isaac mirrors and foreshadows Christ on cross
Psalm 22 is the description of the event,
revelation 22. is the end result and finish
Gods numbers are precise.
there are 66 books of the bible no more no less Christ died on the cross having committed no sin for us he died in a sense murdered [albeit he was a willing sacrifice] the 6th commandment is thou shalt not kill, he died and when the sixth hour was come there was darkness over the whole land until the 9th hour and the earth did quake . In the book of revelations when the 6th seal is opened [revelation7 verse 12] and I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo , there was a great earth quake, and the sun became as sackcloth of hair and the moon became as blood;. 6th day of creation was man and God finished by 6th day. 6th commandment is thou shalt not kill , 6th hour Christ on cross sun becomes dark earthquake 6th seal sun becomes dark earth quake, 66 books of the bible 6, 66 and 666 = fulfillment or one, two and three; he creates man sacrifices himself for man punishes the beast 666 and delivers man Gods numbers are precise look up bible wheel .com and look at books on bible numerology you will see the books he intended and those he did not
I like your interpretation of this passage very outside the box I've read so many people's replys to this question and not much have depth to them but yours does thank you for this interpretation it fits in more as what there talking about with the end days and rapture :)
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
In verse 35, I suppose the word women was used because grinding grain may have been mainly womens work back then.
In verse 36, I suppose the word men was used because working in the field may have been mainly mens work back then.
in verse 34, I think two men in one bed is a bad translation. Men, women and people is not used in the greek writing that the new testament is translated from. The original just say's:
two in one bed
two grinding
two in the field
Two people in one bed seems to me to be a better translation, because while working in the fields and with the crop, a long walk from home, men would perhaps sleep together, and likewise the women too would sleep together.
God Bless,
John.
Just a thought, if Christ is all about love, then how could any form of love between two persons be wrong?
None of this even matters because the Bible is Christian, not American.
And don't give me that crap about what this country was founded on, I'm native American.
Romans:1..24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own Hearts, to Dishonour their own Bodies between themselves: 25 Who Changed the Truth of God into a lie, and Worshipped and Served the Creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen....26 For this cause God gave them up unto Vile Affections: for even their Women did change the Natural use into that Which is against God and Nature: 27 And likewise also the Men, leaving the Natural use of the Woman, Burned in their lust one toward another; Men with Men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that Recompence of their Error which was Meet....28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a Reprobate Mind, to do those things which are not Convenient; 29 Being filled with all Unrighteousness, Fornication, Wckedness, Covetousness, Maliciousness; Full of Envy, Murder, Debate, Deceit, Malignity; Whisperers, 30 Backbiters, [[ Haters of God ]] Despiteful, Proud, Boasters, inventors of Evil things, Disobedient to Parents, 31 Without understanding, Covenantbreakers, without Natural affection, Implacable, Unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the Judgment of God, that they which Commit such things are Worthy of Death, Not only do the Same, But have Pleasure in them that do them..
In those times and even now in places of poverty especially in wintertime such as even in mexico it is common for heterosexual men to sleep in the same bed. It is not a ref to homosexuality. Also if you were concerned enough that this bothers you get ahold of a Hebrew translation and translate the actual words and you will discover the reference is much closer to two people. In USA people are rich, filthy rich, the homes we live in would be considered mega mansions in the time the bible was written and also when it was translated. People right up to the cowboy days shared a bed and it was not in any way considered sexual.
Wow. Try the satanic one too then right? Lol wow.
Hi, i admittedly have not read the entire contents of all the comments posted here although many i have read say ywo men in a bed is more like a slumber-party then implying sex. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah it was mentioned by the men at lots door that they wanted to, "Know the men." lot offered up his daughters to them. Many today argue that "Know them" implys something different. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. No one goes to the father but THREW him. Read romans 10:9-10. The old testiments is finished. When Jesus was resurrected he finished that covenant and we started a new covenant. Two rules, love you god with all your heart, mind, soul, body and to love your neighbor likewise. That is why mix fabrics are allowed, broken hooved animals are now ok to eat. Shell fish are ok too.
NOW HERE IS THE PART WHERE WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND. Accepting jesus as lord and savior means WE ARE SAVED! Being free from the law does not make us exempt from the law. Homosexuality is still a sin and as we all know, the wages of sin is still death. This means that you can cause an early death like smoking. This act defiles the temple of god causing cancer, emphysema and other diseases. That doesnt mean you're going to hell. It just mean that you can cause an early death before your time.
I WAS KIND OF WHAT TO SAY OR ANSWER TO GIVE,SCRIPTURE TELLS US HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN THERE ARE SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE WHICH DOES CONDEMNS THAT TYPE OF SEXUAL SIN LESBIAN ACTS also,so that tells me it's not referring to homosexuality, ALSO,I DO KNOW THERE ARE SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE THAT SPEAKS ABOUT MEN,BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT WORD MEANS MEN AND WOMEN,SO FOR ME THAT IS SPEAKING ABOUT A MARRIAGE BED since woman came out of the rib of a man we are called woman. The word of God has to be rightly divided,so we study the word of God to show ourselves approved, The lord doesn't confuse his people we get confused cause we don't study his word, cause at the very bottom on verse 36 it says 2 men working at the field Dakes king James version has it. So study study study his word ask the Holy Spirit to teach you so you won't be confused.
I hold no judgement whatsoever because it is not my place. However, I must share the knowledge of the events currently taking place right in front of our very eyes. Call me crazy, I really don't care but the scriptures in the Bible have been altered in a supernatural way. Anyone who knows God and actually reads the Bible faithfully, would know the Bible has been tampered with--so as sorry as I am, I regret to inform you, that this particular scripture has not always been written the way that it is today with reference to two men lying in bed together. It has been altered along with many other scriptures with the intent and sole purpose of bringing confusion along with justification in regards to behaviors that God clearly states are an abomination. Now, does that mean homosexuals will not make it into Heaven? No,I am not saying that at all because none of us are without sin. However, the King James Bible is far from being accurate and even further from being the Truth. Evidence of inaccuracy can be found with minimal research of the history dating back to the time period in which it was created. Also, research a facility called, Cern located in Switzerland. They are a compilation of the top scientists in the world who are invested solely in time travel, changing times and dimensions. They have been successful with many of the experiments executed by their team (one being the slow changes in scripture)but all this does not come without a high price, mainly to the planet.........hence the hurricanes, earthquakes, floods and other unnatural events that we see taking place today. People can choose to believe or they can choose to believe what makes them feel better and less convicted regarding homosexuality. I am telling you my friend that particular scripture was never written the way it is currently and it has been altered. WAKE UP PEOPLE, SERIOUSLY.
Just read a word study on that scripture. The word 'men' was added. Not in the originsl text. Culturally, bed could mean couches or pillows, as in middle eastern style.
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [i]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [j]men, leaving the natural use of the [k]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
ROMANS 1:18-32 ^^^^
Homosexuality is a sin just like lying and cheating, adultery and gluttony but not many will be in perfect form when the rapture happens. If you read the verse, it says one shall be taken and the other one shall be left. Why is one taken and one left? Because the one which was take was in a repentant mind and knew what they were engaging in was sin and had accepted Jesus as Lord and savior and trying to stop the sin they were engaging in. And acknowledging that it was sin. many overweight people will be raptured still in their sin of gluttony but as long as they recognize that they are in sin and in need of a savior, they will be taken. The other unrepentant one will be left. We are not here to glorify our sins but to overcome them...
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